Mafia Round 3

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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Sisco on Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:40 pm

Ok I see how it is with no real reason for suspicion Hugh is going to call me out and try and lynch me. Seems to be trying to back peddle out of the lime light as quickly as possible.

Vote to lynch Hugh Jorgan
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Hugh Jorgan on Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:37 pm

Fair play sisco. I do not blame you for that.

Now what can i do to change that vote?
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Arc on Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:14 pm

Well People, it looks like we are now looking for a replacement. Anyone know someone?
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Hans Gruber on Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:29 pm

Hugh Jorgan wrote:Green you say i "sling shit" yet you say nothing of any other suspect. You focus on me like some sort of schoolgirl crush.

Vote to lynch green machine

Reason hypocrisy


Otaku1889 wrote:In regards to Hans' defense of Hugh, I'm kicking myself over not thinking of something so stupidly obvious. L9O, how have we not think of this sooner?
Otaku, would you mind clarifying this bit for me? Why L9O? The rest of this post was very good, and it did a lot to assuage my concerns about you, but I'm in the dark about this part. Am I missing something obvious?

Now for Mack. Are you suspicious of Orphans because of the pizza thing, or are you seeing something else?
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Mack_Coffins on Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:30 pm

I was suspicious because he wanted to hang me over pizza, yes.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Otaku1889 on Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:40 pm

L9O and I were scum buddies. We both know the importance of communication and group interaction between mafia members. I'm commenting on how dumb it was that neither of us as former scum thought of that part of your defense sooner, since it's fairly obvious in hindsight.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Hans Gruber on Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:42 pm

Ah, so I was missing something obvious. Carry on.
As far as a replacement, I have a couple of ideas, but only if we get truly desperate
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by THR on Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:05 pm

ok. I'm alive. Sorry for not posting earlier.
It's only the first day, and as i've never played with you guys before, I was keeping quiet to see how you all behave. Also, I don't really like to posture, and since I have nothing to offer in terms of behavioral discrepancies between this game and last game, I didn't feel like I had anything to add to the conversation. I have some suspicions but i want to see how things play out before i wantonly accuse someone.
Vote to lynch: No One (for now)

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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Sisco on Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:22 pm

Pucker up Hugh we will what we can do here!!
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Arc on Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:54 pm

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT: 8 TO LYNCH
Hugh Jorgan: 4-Green Machine, Like9Orphans, LiteralGrill, Sisco
Like9Orphans: 1-Mack Coffins
Literal Grill: 1-Hans Gruber
Green Machine: 1-Hugh Jorgan
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Green Machine on Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:34 pm

I'm glad to see that Sisco and THR both live. Hans, do you have any prompts for those two in the style that you gave the rest of us?

I'm see no reason this information shouldn't be public: LiteralGrill is the one we are searching for a replacement for. I am her friend in meat world and she told me privately that she is dropping out of the game. So anyone waiting for a response from her is waiting for a response from her replacement.

Incidentally I think we need to start including a disclaimer on our sign-up pages that playing with this group requires a thick skin. LiteralGrill is dropping out because of the repeated references to 'autistic screeching'. It's the second game out of three where someone quit because they were offended by the conduct of other players. So if we don't want to hunt for mid-game replacements each game then we should make it clear from the outset that this group has no filter.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Hans Gruber on Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:13 pm

@Green Machine- I do have prompts for them. Unfortunately, they're fairly generic, but it's the best I can do under the circumstances.

@Sisco and THR- I've individually requested of so many people what I'm about to ask of you that I'm considering making an image macro for it. Please list the two players you think are most likely to be angelic members of the town, and two people you think are most likely to be Santa-worshipping members of the Mafia, while giving your reasoning for each. Note that feelings are, actually, an argument in the game of Mafia, but they tend to not be very persuasive ones.
@THR- What made you choose to break your silence?
@Sisco- Several of your subordinates are in this game. Hypothetically, if you were a Mafia member, which of those players do you think would be most likely to figure you out?
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Like9Orphans on Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:56 pm

Ok I’m going to start by asking Mack why he thinks I am suspicious. Im curious if it is based on what you know of how I played last game or if it is based on anything else.  

Addressing concerns:
Nihil I will try to tone down the autistic screeching to the occasional obnoxious hoopla but that is the way I try to play the game, with comedic touches as I can whether it is funny to anyone else other than me is irrelevant. I will gladly be giving more analysis, however I feel that I am a more competent scum than I am town at least during the first day.  I will admit that I am rather uncertain of what to poke at without any hard evidence.  However as it is my job I will attempt to do my best reads with what evidence we have.  Also, I will address your text nuke later on in the rest of my text nuke.

As for the suspicion for me and anyone in general that was on the bandwagon I would like to point my plan out to them.  My thoughts were to add more pressure to the bandwagon on Hugh to get him to speak more.  There were not many votes on him at the time and I knew if I joined in on the bandwagon more would follow. Unfortunately it did not go exactly way that I wanted as he has still not said much. However, it did give us info as I feel that there is valuable info gained by seeing Literal Grill jumping on the bandwagon without much to add.  With that I will add some pressure on Literal Grill by asking a question.  How much info do you need to accuse someone of being possible scum?  

Asking questions:
I have a couple questions for the group who has played in previous games with me. What was your biggest fault in the last game? What do you think your finest moment was? For everyone else I want to ask a question that was asked last game as well. What makes a person or a post scummy?


And now for my reads in no particular order.

GM Read:
GM: Has met the 99% limit by having everyone post now unless THR and Sisco don’t know that I am awaiting a reply from them to call miller IF AND ONLY IF they are miller.  Other than that playing similarly to the last game and hasn’t done anything out the ordinary.

Mack Collins:
Mack Coffins: Despite his wrong taste in fruits of the pizza I will say that he shares a sentiment of my own here.  I will address this later.  Of the new players he is trying to put out some information and reads down on players.  Despite being wrong in his accusation of me he at least has a realistic reason. Revenge voting is at least a decent tactic especially when the screeching is at its peak.  I will point out that bandwagoning is how you get pressure down on people to give out information and claims especially in early RVS so we have some hard evidence to go back to if something else should arise.  His one post has done a genuine number on my read of him thus far.  He hasn’t done anything particularly scummy and has shared my sentiment. I just feel that I am reading sincerity in his posts.

Hans Read:
Hans: The sentiment that I share with Mack is the fact that Hans is worrying me.  I have had 1 RVS stage with Hans and in that game I didn’t know what I was doing.  He did an excellent job of leading the town to victory along with Arc and GM and I was a long for the ride.  I can’t exactly pin it down but something is off.  He seems a lot more aggressive than in the previous game I have played with him and it is off-putting.  I understand that this is day one but I'm a little suspicious of just how much he has said.  I feel like there is a lot of his big posts that it kind of covers up what others are saying. It feels like there is just too much Hans on every page for my liking and it feels like there is just an amount of info that might be misleading. He has posted 14 times and most of them are pretty lengthy like he is misleading us.  Now this is granted that GM has posted 20 times thus far, but in GMs case he is pretty well all but confirmed town and has not said nearly as much in said posts, not that GM has been quiet or anything.

Dsilv Read:
Dsilv: I disagree with your thoughts on Mack primarily because he is the least scummy of the new players. Yes he backed off after I threw my vote but I can’t relate that to necessarily scummy behavior because nothing else has caught my eyes on him so I can’t link anything together.  Overall Dsilv I give you a neutral read as you haven't really done anything that I can really push on so…

KSS Read:
KSS:  Interesting thus far.  Obviously the screeching has stopped.  That has made me interested in what he has to say namely because it’s different.  I anticipated him to play the same way as last time from what everyone said of him as well as his amount of enjoyment that he got out of it last game.  

Game 2 Cage match
KevinSafeSpacey wrote:I had a lot of fun stirring the pot on day one. The only thing I hope we take from this is that we should post slightly more especially day one. There was nothing to go on besides Otaku being fairly scummy(which it was a big nod but I think I was playing to aggressive for most to notice) myself shouting randomly while Ram did her best to defend herself from the finger pointing. Good game, I'm looking forward to the next one.

Clearly some people took to this strategy. This leads me to some of my future points.  But I will address them later.  As far as KSS this game I am interested in more of what he says. Thus far he has played fairly conservatively thus far. When Ghosty pushes back against KSS for his aggression against Otaku, KSS doesn’t seem to address it at all but does back off Otaku. This kind of feels scummy honestly.  He just kind of ignores the 2 accusations that Ghosty puts forward that are sound in logic. Namely forgiving Ghosty for posting so shortly but not for Otaku.  On top of that he also is in favor of a no lynch currently.

KevinSafeSpacey wrote:First things first, others have pointed out Hugh seems like he could be playing like I did game one. That is a good point. I even (sort of) hold the opinion that there is not really much of a reason to lynch Day One unless someone is spitting scum like a sewage drain.  I also must confess I jumped on a convincing bandwagon, everyone had pretty decent points as to why "I" should pick Hugh as my "Number One Undesirable". Lastly, I think if I detract my vote I'll be ostracized and if I stay in my current vote, others may see that as an overall stupid too. But I think I'll keep my vote where it is. Now on to the more personalized section.

If you ask me this is a bad idea for the town.  We have a lot of townies but the thing that truly bugs me is that we have so many mafia members.  Even if we do lynch a townie day one the town will at least have the power to do so.  We need more evidence namely in the fact of what people claim and what people voted to lynch said person.  If we don’t lynch we take away the power that the town has and leave it to the mafia and power roles to decide who lives and dies. The way I am seeing it currently we can’t afford to mislynch more than 2 times pending the existence of a doctor, vig, a second mafia family, or a serial killer or a crazy gun owner.  Since our game is so large I can’t help but think we have at least 2 of those in there and will make this game more interesting.  We don’t know what we have.  To get information, is a very vital thing at this point in the game. If we lynch someone that is townie at this point either the mafia is doing a fucking great job of misleading the town or the townie that is lynched probably deserved it.  

These points being said I’m not convinced that he is pure scum. It could be an issue of trying to play a new way and making mistakes.  I am leaning scum but not super hard.

Hugh Read:
Hugh: Ugh… still on top of the list.  Short posts with nothing of note besides shit flinging.  Still my number 1 pick. Either a poor town or poor mafia and until I get some answers from him and reads on more people I will continue the pressure.  I prose this question to you.  Why do you want Sisco in particular to change his mind? Why not anyone else?

Sisco Read:
Sisco: You jump into the game with a vote to jump on the bandwagon and not articulate any other thoughts. From my experience in the mafia world I have found that the quietest ones are scummiest. Question, What do you think is the most damning thing about Hugh?

Literal Grill Read:
Literal Grill: As was mentioned people have their suspicion on you and I can see why.  Even though one of the is one of my highest suspects I can see the value that is put into those thoughts because there are a lot of people joining in on the sentiment with valuable reads.  Posting enough to seem invested is definitely how I would put it as well. With Nihil, Hans, and Otaku on this potential bandwagon I can understand.  Im curious How Grill will answer my questions proposed earlier in the nuke.

Ralphie Read:
Ralphie: I can only say what I think about the rest of the quiet peeps.  Need more posts and info to get a good read on you and until there is more there is suspicion being thrown your way by myself. However he is at least putting some meat into his single post. So that puts him less scummy than the others that are on the quiet list.

Nihil Read:
Nihil: I am a little skeptical of the way that Nihil plays.  Primarily in the fact that he seems to play in a similar way to that I played last game.  I don’t mind playing it that way but I am still skeptical of it.  Heavy but thin posts.  Even thinner than my own.  The big thing is that he is very good at putting down minimal words to maximum effect which is just the combination needed to make a good scum with misdirection.  It's still closer to neutral than scum because nothing in particular has peaked my note. It's just been on my mind more than anything.

Otaku Read:
Otaku: Thus far I am pretty well convinced that he is town just from my reads of him from last game when he was scum. He is putting forth info, he is putting in thought, and while it might be wordy and murky I can not berate him for that because that is no different than my own inability to be articulate.  He made a mistake with his post but he is trying to be as transparent as he can which is in relation to him trying to not hide anything and therefore not being scum.  I think that he is trying to learn how to put forward an articulate argument like myself from not enough evidence.  Last game he was very much a team player for the scum and he seems to be being a team player here as well for the opposite side this time.

Ghosty Read:
Ghosty: I am very cautious of him but only because I know how much of a threat he would be if he turns out to be scum. As far as his posting I would agree with his argument for Hans’s posts feeling hollow. I do acknowledge that he is worried about me as a potential scum member because of last game and appreciate it if nothing else just to see that a man whos wit and intelligence I respect respects my ability as well.  For that I prose you a question Ghosty. If I were scum what would my new plan be?


So to answer your first question Hans I will put my read in a more understandable list.

Final summary:
Top town
GM
Mack

Above neutral
Otaku

Neutral
Dsilv
Ghosty
Nihil

Below neutral
KSS
Ralphie

Top Scum
Hans
THR
Sisco
Literal Grill
Hugh

GM is top town Hugh is top scum FYI


So there, the bomb has been dropped and I hope that I answered everyone's question. If I missed anything please let me know.  This post has taken me far too fucking long and now I have to edit it.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Mack_Coffins on Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:35 pm

I'm still hesitant of the majority of people because I still have no clear read except for a few people. There are three types of people, giant posts contained with a rapport of everyone, medium posts with context on the discussion in incremental blocks, and then the slimjim posts of a few with no real depth or reason unless you know their rationale, and the latter being the newer players I feel they're just lost in the game with no real direction due to the need to sit down, read the giant posts, and attempt to discern friend from foe somehow, and likely are just to busy to be bothered to sit down for an hours time and play catch up on text nukes.

This post doesn't really add much to the conversation I know but I feel better that others might see why I'm not sure where I stand currently, I would like to only deal in absolutes (a pipedream in a game like this) but it's enough to make me hesitate and not dogpile on somebody who decides to try the game, get dogpiled on in the forums, and then be shafted back out like a black sheep having been givin no real direction other than finding the time to do a google search on how mafia is supposed to be played.

I've played town of salem and werewolves within, a variant of mtg mafia at times, so I get the idea but I don't believe they have that much of an inkling wtf is going on perhaps. I'll go ahead and ask the obvious question they may never get around to so I can have a clear conscience if I need to hang somebody soon because I really don't know who I can trust currently.

In this version of mafia what are the roles and what do they do? I know there are likely 3 types of mafia, a godfather, a power role that kills, and likely a 3rd with a different ability like that of a "framer"

Please correct me and explain the roles proper if I am wrong.

As far as townies I know there are vanilla roles, perhaps a mayor, I guess town moderator is an actual role unless that is supposed to be a signifier of "forum moderator" essentially, but an in depth analysis would be nice because even I know not who all my allies roles may be in this mode, forum mafia is new to me and the long form posts are certainly a farcry from the quick rounds Im used to in comparison.

Lastly I guess there is a possibility of neutral roles like serial killer, anything other than that I should beware of that is also an enemy of the town?

I understand this is a groan inducing thing to ask of the other players but for the benefit of people I may end up hanging and regretting later this is beneficial for all involved to clear the air and get us back on the same page so we can figure this out before townies get chipped away by scum one by one as we sit here like lambs to the slaughter pointing fingers and sowing doubt where it may not be needed.

God damn it I did a long post again.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Mack_Coffins on Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:51 pm

I'll also reply to you Orphans so I don't get called out for dodging a question, and put another point in that really irked me initially when people started the bandwagon on Hugh.

If you voted to lynch me initially on the grounds of pizza I'm assuming you did it in jest, like I voted to lynch Kevin on the grounds that I just know him irl, and thought it would be funny at the time.

If that's the case thats fine and dandy, but my suspicion carries over past the RVS or "random voting stage" which I also assume is the fun banter part to get people talking because there is a quick drop off apparently from joking around to just lynching because you don't like their train of logic, especially if it was something that was supposed to be more nonsensical funtime banter in their head, but ended up being interpreted as a farce and red flag for scum.

Not the worst thing to hang somebody for after all, but I guess that since I also know Hugh irl as well and he doesn't strike me as the mafia savvy dude I end up giving him the benefit of the doubt from getting the rope from a more seasoned player who knows what to look for. I can be wrong about Hugh, he still can be scum, and certainly has not clarified a dang thing still, but I just felt like it was the right thing to do.

In short I read Hugh's first few posts as jokes, when pressed he attempts to defend himself in a way I also read as trying to be funny yet falling flat which sent 4 people into high gear to lynch him, I didn't want a false lynch on day one because the lines of where the fun stopped was unknown to us that are on our first round of mafia and that would leave a sour taste in my mouth to see a newbie get offed so early on in a long form version of mafia.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Mack_Coffins on Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:15 pm

(GM send my condolences to your meat world friend, I doubt we're all jaded to the point that using the term "autistic screeching" is grounds to leave the game unless it's compounded with the lack of will needed to read forum posts that are likely more tame and thought out than most games of clue I played as a kid, those contained more vulgarity than the entire 6 pages I've read so far, but that's just me and I'm actually taken back that that's the actual reason she decided to not play anymore)

;-;
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Ghosty on Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:18 pm

There has been such a huge pile of posts since I was last able to reply to this game that I frankly don't even know where to begin. If I try to reply to and/or comment on every post since my last that mentions anything worth talking about, I'd probably have to leave for work tomorrow before I can finish it.

So, instead, I'm going to reply only to the things that have most caught my eye and then allow everyone else the opportunity to interrogate me on specific details and my opinions of so-and-so's post from page X.

Nihil's Reads:
There are really just three questions I have for you after looking over all your reads again. The first is, has the revelation of LiteralGrill's choice to drop from the game affect your read of her at all? I ask this because, if she really is dropping from the game for the reasons that have been explained, it would make it seem more likely she simply didn't have time and taste for the game rather than that she was intentionally keeping a low profile to try and sneak by the town. Secondly, could you restate your read on KevinSafeSpacey? It stands out to me from all of your reads because you never really say whether you think he's scum or town at this point, you just pat him on the back for not giving a repeat performance from last game. Third and lastly, now that Hugh Jorgan has made an attempt at defending himself, are you satisfied with him or will you place a vote as you challenged?

Otaku1889's Post Editing:
I definitely want to talk about this, but only because I was the first person to bring it to attention and I said I would need time to decide if it was meaningful or just a simple blunder. Suffice it to say, I think it's pretty clear that it was an innocent mistake on Otaku's part rather than some sort of intentional cheating. I doubt Otaku would cheat in the first place, but beyond that his explanation is reasonable and relatable. I don't think there's a whole lot to say about this; it's pretty cut and dry. I only mention this point because I implied I would cover this topic in my last post.

Otaku's Other Things:
I have to come clean here, I should have provided my thoughts on Otaku's eighth post, the one towards the bottom of page 3 that comes immediately before my post wherein I dissected Otaku's posts up to that point. I didn't at the time of that post because Otaku posted while I was writing that post and I didn't want to go back and add yet more to my post after finishing it- I decided I would read and respond to that post from Otaku later. The post I made the next day (on page 4, my most recent post if you discount the short comment on post editing) would have been a good time, but by that point in time I'd actually forgotten about that post from Otaku.

I bring this up partially for the sake of transparency, but also because I want to comment on Otaku's rebuttal on page 4 of the concerns Green Machine and I raised and I can't very well do that without first talking about the deeper root of that conversation. So, fuck, why not write another novel on Otaku? Playing a game of Mafia is a labor of love.

Otaku's Original Rebuttals, AKA "Damn it, Nested Spoilers Already?":

Otaku1889 wrote:Answering GM's concerns:
1) "Non-sense RVS-style question." First off, yes, I asked a RVS-style question... during the RVS stage of the game. Second, while it's not a serious question by any means, and in no way was supposed to distract from the important topics, asking someone about their profile pic gives other players insight on their personalities and mind-frames, which newer players wouldn't know.

2) "Conforming to other players reads." I'll admit, most of what I've said has been obvious stuff. Most everyone that knows Ghosty can sense that something's been off about his behavior so far, and Hugh has acted scummy as Hell. As a counterpoint, I'd like to point out that I was the first to comment on your claim, so saying I'm just conforming with people is a bit unfair. And how is what I've said about Hugh "soft distancing?"

3) "...didn't say anything there which hadn't already been said by somebody during the previous game's post-game discussion." What does this even mean? I was giving a short and general recap of notable player behavior, not providing deep new insight on a finished game...

1) I  was willing to buy this counterpoint, since as I've mentioned before I'm pretty generous towards people pushing for discussion on Day 1 no matter what it is specifically. Your timing was atrocious, mind you, but not so much so that I would be forced to conclude it must have been intentionally malign.

#2: I believe that I had mentioned you were the first to reply to GM's Miller claim in my dissection of your posts. Had my post come before yours, I would be both amused by and suspicious of the way that comment, since it would have been defending yourself against an accusation of being a parrot by parroting my own point. But the reality is that you posted first, and I feel it's actually a pretty valid point.

3) This is the one I have more trouble with. I've already explained what I disliked about the original post this references (post #7 from Otaku in my dissection, for those struggling to keep up) in my dissection of Otaku's posts. Now, to be fair, I can't expect Otaku to have responded to my criticism of that post before I posted said criticism. Even if I had read that counterpoint before making my post, it wouldn't have significantly changed the way I appraised Otaku's choice to explain the events from last game without trying to relate them to this game.

Now, Otaku's more recent rebuttals, which came in response to GM's rebuttal of Otaku's original rebuttals. Sheesh, what a mess. Quoting the version with better formatting.

The Version With Better Formatting:

Otaku1889 wrote:I’ll go ahead and post some stuff addressing concerns that have been brought up in regards to me (specifically GM and Ghosty’s), as well as my top two town and scum players.
Defense:
-Nonsense question and the RVS portion: I feel my nonsense question was justifiable in both timing and content. Ask yourselves this: has that question distracted at all from GM’s claim? I would say no. The question is innocuous enough that it never halted serious discussion. My primary goal in posing that question was to incite any form of discussion, however small. It helps find out who’s invested enough to post, but either doesn’t know what to say (understandable for new players) or else wants to keep their head down (scum).

-As for my statements on Hugh and how that relates to the above, context is key. Calling for serious discussion is admirable, but said call was immediately dismissed in the same post by essentially saying “Let’s not talk about nonsense; instead let’s talk about nonsense!” Contradictions are a good indicator towards scumminess, and I wanted to point that out. I do see your (GM’s) point in how my calling that out might seem hypocritical given that I posted a relatively nonsensical question after, but I never said that non-serious questioning should’ve ended at that point, merely that it would’ve been a respectable thing to call for.

-Recapping past behaviors: I elected to not give my opinions on how past behavior might be relevant to current behavior largely because I felt giving a non-opinionated recap would help newcomers come to their own conclusions before being influenced further by theories. A good teacher doesn’t teach you what to think, but how to think for yourself. Side note: Dsilv inspired me to offer a recap when he asked if we could refer to past games. I realized new players would be at a disadvantage in regards to general knowledge, and I’m the kind of guy that prefers everyone be on the same playing field (Hence, recaps as objective as possible).

-Following the leader: I’ll concede that my readings of Ghosty and Hugh were probably too similar to Hans’, but in my defense, I do think that I made enough differences to say that I wasn’t just blindly jumping on a bandwagon. Firstly, in regards the Ghosty read, whereas Hans was more concerned with his “artificial” language, I was more concerned by the lack of questioning to prompt discussion. In regards to Hugh, I made a note of the contradictory nature of his call to action/continued joking, which wasn’t brought up before. While we’re on this subject, I’ve alluded to this before, but I think Ghosty redeemed himself with his novella of a post. Waiting for a bit before publishing an essay is very much part of his play-style, so I guess the lack of quick questioning is excusable.

Readings:
So, before I begin, I’m going to leave out Hugh Jorgan. He’s top of my scum list, but anything I could say about him now would be redundant. Instead, I’ll focus on my second and third choices for scum.
-Green Machine: Town. Just flat out. I’ve outlined before that I don’t think he’s done anything scummy, and that policy-lynching might be a waste of the town’s time and focus. Further, everything he’s done in this game is in-line with the play-style he used last time, where he was pro-town.
-Hans Gruber: Town. He’s been aggressively pursuing leads, particularly with irregularities in Ghosty’s posting, and with Hugh for obvious reasons. While aggressive behavior could be scummy, his most recent posts wherein he poses questions for everyone feels more town to me.
-LiteralGrill: Scummy. Thus far, LiteralGrill seems to fall under the “invested enough to post, but prefers to keep their head down” category, which as I’ve stated before, is either an inexperienced player thing, or a scum thing. I’m leaning towards scum right now due to their most recent post, wherein their town/scum reads are just restating the majority consensus.
-Mack Coffins: Scummy. In a similar situation to LiteralGrill, the main difference being that he hasn’t posted since things became serious. This mostly seems like a joke thing, but it’s pseudo-notable that his last action was pointing a finger at L9O, I guess. Otherwise I’ve got nothing else to work with with him…
Other reads:
-Like9Orphans: The problem with L9O is that he’s really good at hiding his scumminess. He made detailed and insightful, yet not altogether groundbreaking posts last game… Which is what pretty much any townie would do if they weren’t leaders in the discussion. So yeah, it’s going to be interesting trying to keep an eye out for anything unusual from him.
-Sisco and THR: I’m assuming from the lack of posting that these players aren’t scum, and don’t have major roles, elsewise they would’ve been invested enough to make some appearance by now…

Not going to vote on anyone right now. I would vote for Hugh, but I kinda want to keep the day running longer. More time means more info, after all.

Not going to reply to the first bit, since I already mentioned that I accepted your first defense on it as reasonable. But regarding the third counterpoint, I don't like what I see. Your defense is basically that you didn't include your opinion because you didn't want to taint the views of the new players, but this is a game about convincing other people of your views. I don't understand why you would leave such context out of your post unless you either hadn't figured out how you want to spin it or you honestly had no opinions on how the actions people took last game could relate to what's happening this game.

Unfortunately, I just don't have time to go deeper into your post and talk about your reads if I want to have time to talk about some posts from other people before I hit my deadline (and it may be hard to believe but I would like to do more than just continue to screech at you). But, I will end this portion of my post by saying that overall Otaku's ranking in my scumlist (below Hugh but above L9O) has not changed, even if I think of him as slightly less scummy now.

Dsilv's Assorted Thoughts:
Regarding point #1, I snark all the time but I don't think I've ever been particularly pessimistic in my outlook during a game. Of course, considering that we're working through a text-only medium, it's entirely plausible that someone could read something in a different tone than I wrote it. That aside, why is it that something like that kind of tone to my posts would make you lean town on your read of me? Is it just consistency?

Also, as a brief aside, I think you misunderstood what Nihil was saying; he didn't seem to be advocating for lynching Green Machine so much as asking whether other people felt he should be lynched as a matter of principle.

Regarding point #3, if we look at KSS' behavior in the last game, he started to self-destruct after Arc began putting pressure on him and we followed Arc's lead like idiots. KSS started the game off asking some questions and prodding other townsfolk. Hugh, on the other hand pretty much came out of the gate swinging wildly with some nonsense. I can understand the comparison, but I feel like there are some subtle differences between the two cases and you can't just ignore those subtleties.

Sisco's Vote for Hugh:
I'm just curious, which do you think is more suspicious about Hugh: the vote he cast on you specifically, or the way he has been behaving so far in a more general sense?

Green Machine, on Circumstances of LiteralGrill Dropping:
I'm sorry to hear that she isn't comfortable with this game, but I wouldn't want someone to stick around if they aren't comfortable. The unfortunate reality of Mafia is that you need to have a thick skin to play. That's not a feature of our group stemming from us not having a filter, it's just how the game is. I've seen similar situations in other Mafia games I've played with other groups. As far as adding a disclaimer goes, I don't think that's a bad idea.

There's still more I want to talk about but I really can't stay up working on this post for much longer as I've already pushed myself beyond the time I like to stay up. I'll be around tomorrow, and I'll try to comment then more directly on the reads posted recently, such as by L9O while I was typing this post. But as a reminder, I am encouraging people who want my thoughts on any particular posts to ask me questions about them.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Green Machine on Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:28 pm

A nice meaty post by Like9Orphans, full of delicious juicy information. I bite into that a little later. First I'll respond to the inquiry by  Mack_Coffins.

In this setup we don't know specifically what the roles are. Killing the "Town Moderator" was a colorful way of Arc starting this game, but he is running the game, he was never a player in it and moderator isn't a role within the game. In the opening post we have this:

Arc wrote:In this setup, there are 4 members of the scum team, and 10 members of the Town team. and I will inform you that there are vanilla townies in the setup, but that's all the information you have to go on for now.

This says to me that there are only two factions, the town and a single mafia. If there are third-party roles or two scum teams then this is misleading wording. All we know about the particular roles that exist in this setup is there are (presumably at least two) vanilla townies. The games on this forum are the entirety of my Mafia experience, so when doing research about roles and how the game is played I go here: Mafiascum Wiki Roles Main Page

Most of the roles you mentioned in your post are unfamiliar to me, so I wonder if they are different names for the common roles on the mafiascum site. I will clarify the rules that I understand form the basis of the game.

EVERYONE:
- Can talk on this thread during day phases.
- Has one vote to cast towards lynching another player.

MAFIA:
- Can talk with each other privately, during both day and night phases.
- Can select one of their members to target someone for a kill during the night phase. Any mafia member can perform this kill, but the mafia gets only one kill per night.

The moderator said that vanilla townies exist, and I have claimed the role of miller. Beyond that it is too early to speculate what roles might exist in this game.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Mack_Coffins on Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:33 pm

-To GM, thanks, that explains enough of what I needed to know, and simplifies what I thought to be a much broader roleset

Most of the other classes I posed like mayor, framer, etc were from Town of Salem, which had quite the myriad of roles and powers
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Green Machine on Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:39 pm

And yes, I am a bit taken aback about that reasoning for quitting the game as well. Especially if what Ghosty says is true and most Mafia games are like this, as I know she has experience playing forum-based Mafia. Perhaps it is just the reason she gave me and there are other motivations at work here. I can't really talk with her about it in-depth since I am still participating in this game. If her reasons are related to her role, or abuse being taken in the scumchat (if she was actually scum), she can't tell me any of that without compromising my place as a player in the game.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Arc on Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:11 am

Her PM informing me just said that she didn't think she would do well in this setting, that she didn't think she would fit in due to some of the dialog choices, and that she apologized for the inconvenience.

Honestly, some of the dialog choices can be offensive to some people, especially if they don't know the majority of the group and how they really act when they aren't giving each other shit and calling each other scumbags, so I understand that making you uncomfortable.

Most Mafia games do end up getting heated with insults being thrown around, the particular insults and how personal they get can differ wildly, so a thick skin is usually necessary, but certain groups can make people uncomfortable in ways they weren't expecting.

Its tragic, but its too late now, and really probably couldn't have been helped with this group of people.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Green Machine on Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:20 am

Like9Orphans wrote:I have a couple questions for the group who has played in previous games with me. What was your biggest fault in the last game? What do you think your finest moment was? For everyone else I want to ask a question that was asked last game as well. What makes a person or a post scummy?

My biggest fault last game was probably the insistence that a cop was present in the game. It was a factor in calling for the no-lynch the night before I died, and certainly didn't do the town any favors since it wasn't true. I would have been ready to give up on that the next day when there was still no cop claim, but I was too dead to change my opinion on the matter.

My finest moment was Day 3. I started some pressure on Otaku which (when added to by another player) ended up making him crack. Then after the claim I quickly followed up with questions that left no doubt he was scum.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by KevinSafeSpacey on Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:55 am

*Out of game* Jesus Christ, if you get upset by word pairings such as "autistic screeching" you would sure hate me irl. I even leave out all vulgarity possible just to keep this somewhat profession since everyone else does. We should add a disclaimer because I really like to say or type the occasional (Multiple) cuss words. Anyways...

*In Game*
L9O- I'm more than puzzled by your assessment of me. Not because you think I lean to the scummy side but because of your reasons. Not wanting to hit any town with a mislynch is not a good reason to lean me scummy but that's just my opinion here. You and GM have this "For The Greater Good" mentality that I just flat out disagree with. There's really no better way for me to explain my feelings on that point.

Next, I know I was loud last game. You can really only use that defense once. It's been repeated over and over. I feel like my conduct last game is the equivalent of a hit pop song. It's stuck in everyone's head. Think of it this way, It's damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I screeched again everyone would vote to lynch me because well, the toxic "For The Greater Good" policy is well enforced here. I'm not screeching and literally every post directed to me so far has addressed I screeched previously. I wanted to give this game an actual go. Regardless of my role's alignment. This is because, and I know a few can vouch for this, I never live past day two. Past day one is also pretty rare. Not that I didn't have fun either of those times, but I'd like to see myself go farther and actually post relevant material for once.

I did address Ghosty's questions and I did forgive him for his short post. I said that what I did with otaku was probably a rookie mistake. I'm not used to playing as a normal person. Which is a point that has been beaten to death, then resurrected and beaten to death again.

Lastly, your question. I think any answer I give here will sound "scummy" to someone. The reason being, the term scum is just so broad in it's meaning to everyone here. Mack brought up a great point stating that he saw Hugh's post as comedic while others found his posts , myself included at one point mind you, scummy. The question seems broad and I think the game would turn into a conversation of semantics that won't get us to come together and find the bastard that killed Arc.

Mack- I agree with everything you said. Your points are exactly why I decided to back off Hugh. Especially after I noticed everyone really hitting the bandwagon and got a bad case of deja vu (last game). What if Hugh is town? What if Hugh is not only town but also a major role? It would hurt town and bring us at a disadvantage.

I am at a loss as to what to say to everyone else at the present but I'm sure you would all find benefitting information in this post. Particularly those who keep bringing up the prior antics of yours truly.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Green Machine on Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:09 am

We had a brief discussion last game about whether it is better to lynch on Day 1 or opt for no-lynch. The consensus there was that it is better to lynch, even though hitting town is fairly likely. We can reopen that discussion for this game, if you like. I think lynching is better because if we decide not to lynch then nobody has pressure to make important statements. Everybody just jacks off until the mafia performs a kill during the night, and the town is down a player without having learned anything. It basically forces investigative roles to win the game for you.

KevinSafeSpacey wrote:What if Hugh is town? What if Hugh is not only town but also a major role? It would hurt town and bring us at a disadvantage.

Hugh already claimed vanilla townie, so that particular thing isn't a concern here.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

Post by Hugh Jorgan on Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:14 am

Green machine really wants a kill day one.

I will do my part to oblige.

Vote to lynch remains green machine.
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Re: Mafia Round 3

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