Re: Mafia Round 3

by Sisco Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:40 pm

Ok I see how it is with no real reason for suspicion Hugh is going to call me out and try and lynch me. Seems to be trying to back peddle out of the lime light as quickly as possible.

Vote to lynch Hugh Jorgan

by Hugh Jorgan Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:37 pm

Fair play sisco. I do not blame you for that.

Now what can i do to change that vote?

by Arc Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:14 pm

Well People, it looks like we are now looking for a replacement. Anyone know someone?

by Hans Gruber Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:29 pm

Hugh Jorgan wrote:Green you say i "sling shit" yet you say nothing of any other suspect. You focus on me like some sort of schoolgirl crush.

Vote to lynch green machine

Reason hypocrisy

Otaku1889 wrote:In regards to Hans' defense of Hugh, I'm kicking myself over not thinking of something so stupidly obvious. L9O, how have we not think of this sooner?

Otaku, would you mind clarifying this bit for me? Why L9O? The rest of this post was very good, and it did a lot to assuage my concerns about you, but I'm in the dark about this part. Am I missing something obvious?

Now for Mack. Are you suspicious of Orphans because of the pizza thing, or are you seeing something else?

by Mack_Coffins Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:30 pm

I was suspicious because he wanted to hang me over pizza, yes.

by Otaku1889 Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:40 pm

L9O and I were scum buddies. We both know the importance of communication and group interaction between mafia members. I'm commenting on how dumb it was that neither of us as former scum thought of that part of your defense sooner, since it's fairly obvious in hindsight.

by Hans Gruber Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:42 pm

Ah, so I was missing something obvious. Carry on.
As far as a replacement, I have a couple of ideas, but only if we get truly desperate

by THR Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:05 pm

ok. I'm alive. Sorry for not posting earlier.
It's only the first day, and as i've never played with you guys before, I was keeping quiet to see how you all behave. Also, I don't really like to posture, and since I have nothing to offer in terms of behavioral discrepancies between this game and last game, I didn't feel like I had anything to add to the conversation. I have some suspicions but i want to see how things play out before i wantonly accuse someone.
Vote to lynch: No One (for now)

by Sisco Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:22 pm

Pucker up Hugh we will what we can do here!!

by Arc Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:54 pm

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT: 8 TO LYNCH
Hugh Jorgan: 4-Green Machine, Like9Orphans, LiteralGrill, Sisco
Like9Orphans: 1-Mack Coffins
Literal Grill: 1-Hans Gruber
Green Machine: 1-Hugh Jorgan

by Green Machine Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:34 pm

I'm glad to see that Sisco and THR both live. Hans, do you have any prompts for those two in the style that you gave the rest of us?

I'm see no reason this information shouldn't be public: LiteralGrill is the one we are searching for a replacement for. I am her friend in meat world and she told me privately that she is dropping out of the game. So anyone waiting for a response from her is waiting for a response from her replacement.

Incidentally I think we need to start including a disclaimer on our sign-up pages that playing with this group requires a thick skin. LiteralGrill is dropping out because of the repeated references to 'autistic screeching'. It's the second game out of three where someone quit because they were offended by the conduct of other players. So if we don't want to hunt for mid-game replacements each game then we should make it clear from the outset that this group has no filter.

by Hans Gruber Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:13 pm

@Green Machine- I do have prompts for them. Unfortunately, they're fairly generic, but it's the best I can do under the circumstances.

@Sisco and THR- I've individually requested of so many people what I'm about to ask of you that I'm considering making an image macro for it. Please list the two players you think are most likely to be angelic members of the town, and two people you think are most likely to be Santa-worshipping members of the Mafia, while giving your reasoning for each. Note that feelings are, actually, an argument in the game of Mafia, but they tend to not be very persuasive ones.
@THR- What made you choose to break your silence?
@Sisco- Several of your subordinates are in this game. Hypothetically, if you were a Mafia member, which of those players do you think would be most likely to figure you out?

by Like9Orphans Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:56 pm

Ok I’m going to start by asking Mack why he thinks I am suspicious. Im curious if it is based on what you know of how I played last game or if it is based on anything else.

Addressing concerns:

Asking questions:

And now for my reads in no particular order.

GM Read:

Mack Collins:

Hans Read:

Dsilv Read:

KSS Read:

Hugh Read:

Sisco Read:

Literal Grill Read:

Ralphie Read:

Nihil Read:

Otaku Read:

Ghosty Read:

So to answer your first question Hans I will put my read in a more understandable list.

Final summary:

So there, the bomb has been dropped and I hope that I answered everyone's question. If I missed anything please let me know. This post has taken me far too fucking long and now I have to edit it.

by Mack_Coffins Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:35 pm

I'm still hesitant of the majority of people because I still have no clear read except for a few people. There are three types of people, giant posts contained with a rapport of everyone, medium posts with context on the discussion in incremental blocks, and then the slimjim posts of a few with no real depth or reason unless you know their rationale, and the latter being the newer players I feel they're just lost in the game with no real direction due to the need to sit down, read the giant posts, and attempt to discern friend from foe somehow, and likely are just to busy to be bothered to sit down for an hours time and play catch up on text nukes.

This post doesn't really add much to the conversation I know but I feel better that others might see why I'm not sure where I stand currently, I would like to only deal in absolutes (a pipedream in a game like this) but it's enough to make me hesitate and not dogpile on somebody who decides to try the game, get dogpiled on in the forums, and then be shafted back out like a black sheep having been givin no real direction other than finding the time to do a google search on how mafia is supposed to be played.

I've played town of salem and werewolves within, a variant of mtg mafia at times, so I get the idea but I don't believe they have that much of an inkling wtf is going on perhaps. I'll go ahead and ask the obvious question they may never get around to so I can have a clear conscience if I need to hang somebody soon because I really don't know who I can trust currently.

In this version of mafia what are the roles and what do they do? I know there are likely 3 types of mafia, a godfather, a power role that kills, and likely a 3rd with a different ability like that of a "framer"

Please correct me and explain the roles proper if I am wrong.

As far as townies I know there are vanilla roles, perhaps a mayor, I guess town moderator is an actual role unless that is supposed to be a signifier of "forum moderator" essentially, but an in depth analysis would be nice because even I know not who all my allies roles may be in this mode, forum mafia is new to me and the long form posts are certainly a farcry from the quick rounds Im used to in comparison.

Lastly I guess there is a possibility of neutral roles like serial killer, anything other than that I should beware of that is also an enemy of the town?

I understand this is a groan inducing thing to ask of the other players but for the benefit of people I may end up hanging and regretting later this is beneficial for all involved to clear the air and get us back on the same page so we can figure this out before townies get chipped away by scum one by one as we sit here like lambs to the slaughter pointing fingers and sowing doubt where it may not be needed.

God damn it I did a long post again.

by Mack_Coffins Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:51 pm

I'll also reply to you Orphans so I don't get called out for dodging a question, and put another point in that really irked me initially when people started the bandwagon on Hugh.

If you voted to lynch me initially on the grounds of pizza I'm assuming you did it in jest, like I voted to lynch Kevin on the grounds that I just know him irl, and thought it would be funny at the time.

If that's the case thats fine and dandy, but my suspicion carries over past the RVS or "random voting stage" which I also assume is the fun banter part to get people talking because there is a quick drop off apparently from joking around to just lynching because you don't like their train of logic, especially if it was something that was supposed to be more nonsensical funtime banter in their head, but ended up being interpreted as a farce and red flag for scum.

Not the worst thing to hang somebody for after all, but I guess that since I also know Hugh irl as well and he doesn't strike me as the mafia savvy dude I end up giving him the benefit of the doubt from getting the rope from a more seasoned player who knows what to look for. I can be wrong about Hugh, he still can be scum, and certainly has not clarified a dang thing still, but I just felt like it was the right thing to do.

In short I read Hugh's first few posts as jokes, when pressed he attempts to defend himself in a way I also read as trying to be funny yet falling flat which sent 4 people into high gear to lynch him, I didn't want a false lynch on day one because the lines of where the fun stopped was unknown to us that are on our first round of mafia and that would leave a sour taste in my mouth to see a newbie get offed so early on in a long form version of mafia.

by Mack_Coffins Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:15 pm

(GM send my condolences to your meat world friend, I doubt we're all jaded to the point that using the term "autistic screeching" is grounds to leave the game unless it's compounded with the lack of will needed to read forum posts that are likely more tame and thought out than most games of clue I played as a kid, those contained more vulgarity than the entire 6 pages I've read so far, but that's just me and I'm actually taken back that that's the actual reason she decided to not play anymore)

;-;

by **Ghosty** Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:18 pm

There has been such a huge pile of posts since I was last able to reply to this game that I frankly don't even know where to begin. If I try to reply to and/or comment on every post since my last that mentions anything worth talking about, I'd probably have to leave for work tomorrow before I can finish it.

So, instead, I'm going to reply only to the things that have most caught my eye and then allow everyone else the opportunity to interrogate me on specific details and my opinions of so-and-so's post from page X.

Nihil's Reads:

Otaku1889's Post Editing:

Otaku's Other Things:

I have to come clean here, I should have provided my thoughts on Otaku's eighth post, the one towards the bottom of page 3 that comes immediately before my post wherein I dissected Otaku's posts up to that point. I didn't at the time of that post because Otaku posted while I was writing that post and I didn't want to go back and add yet more to my post after finishing it- I decided I would read and respond to that post from Otaku later. The post I made the next day (on page 4, my most recent post if you discount the short comment on post editing) would have been a good time, but by that point in time I'd actually forgotten about that post from Otaku.

I bring this up partially for the sake of transparency, but also because I want to comment on Otaku's rebuttal on page 4 of the concerns Green Machine and I raised and I can't very well do that without first talking about the deeper root of that conversation. So, fuck, why not write another novel on Otaku? Playing a game of Mafia is a labor of love.

Otaku's Original Rebuttals, AKA "Damn it, Nested Spoilers Already?":

1) I was willing to buy this counterpoint, since as I've mentioned before I'm pretty generous towards people pushing for discussion on Day 1 no matter what it is specifically. Your timing was atrocious, mind you, but not so much so that I would be forced to conclude it must have been intentionally malign.

#2: I believe that I had mentioned you were the first to reply to GM's Miller claim in my dissection of your posts. Had my post come before yours, I would be both amused by and suspicious of the way that comment, since it would have been defending yourself against an accusation of being a parrot by parroting my own point. But the reality is that you posted first, and I feel it's actually a pretty valid point.

3) This is the one I have more trouble with. I've already explained what I disliked about the original post this references (post #7 from Otaku in my dissection, for those struggling to keep up) in my dissection of Otaku's posts. Now, to be fair, I can't expect Otaku to have responded to my criticism of that post before I posted said criticism. Even if I had read that counterpoint before making my post, it wouldn't have significantly changed the way I appraised Otaku's choice to explain the events from last game without trying to relate them to this game.

Now, Otaku's more recent rebuttals, which came in response to GM's rebuttal of Otaku's original rebuttals. Sheesh, what a mess. Quoting the version with better formatting.

The Version With Better Formatting:

Not going to reply to the first bit, since I already mentioned that I accepted your first defense on it as reasonable. But regarding the third counterpoint, I don't like what I see. Your defense is basically that you didn't include your opinion because you didn't want to taint the views of the new players, but this is a game about convincing other people of your views. I don't understand why you would leave such context out of your post unless you either hadn't figured out how you want to spin it or you honestly had no opinions on how the actions people took last game could relate to what's happening this game.

Unfortunately, I just don't have time to go deeper into your post and talk about your reads if I want to have time to talk about some posts from other people before I hit my deadline (and it may be hard to believe but I would like to do more than just continue to screech at you). But, I will end this portion of my post by saying that overall Otaku's ranking in my scumlist (below Hugh but above L9O) has not changed, even if I think of him as slightly less scummy now.

Dsilv's Assorted Thoughts:

Sisco's Vote for Hugh:

Green Machine, on Circumstances of LiteralGrill Dropping:

There's still more I want to talk about but I really can't stay up working on this post for much longer as I've already pushed myself beyond the time I like to stay up. I'll be around tomorrow, and I'll try to comment then more directly on the reads posted recently, such as by L9O while I was typing this post. But as a reminder, I am encouraging people who want my thoughts on any particular posts to ask me questions about them.

by Green Machine Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:28 pm

A nice meaty post by Like9Orphans, full of delicious juicy information. I bite into that a little later. First I'll respond to the inquiry by Mack_Coffins.

In this setup we don't know specifically what the roles are. Killing the "Town Moderator" was a colorful way of Arc starting this game, but he is running the game, he was never a player in it and moderator isn't a role within the game. In the opening post we have this:

Arc wrote:In this setup, there are 4 members of the scum team, and 10 members of the Town team. and I will inform you that there are vanilla townies in the setup, but that's all the information you have to go on for now.

This says to me that there are only two factions, the town and a single mafia. If there are third-party roles or two scum teams then this is misleading wording. All we know about the particular roles that exist in this setup is there are (presumably at least two) vanilla townies. The games on this forum are the entirety of my Mafia experience, so when doing research about roles and how the game is played I go here: Mafiascum Wiki Roles Main Page

Most of the roles you mentioned in your post are unfamiliar to me, so I wonder if they are different names for the common roles on the mafiascum site. I will clarify the rules that I understand form the basis of the game.

EVERYONE:
- Can talk on this thread during day phases.
- Has one vote to cast towards lynching another player.

MAFIA:
- Can talk with each other privately, during both day and night phases.
- Can select one of their members to target someone for a kill during the night phase. Any mafia member can perform this kill, but the mafia gets only one kill per night.

The moderator said that vanilla townies exist, and I have claimed the role of miller. Beyond that it is too early to speculate what roles might exist in this game.

by Mack_Coffins Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:33 pm

-To GM, thanks, that explains enough of what I needed to know, and simplifies what I thought to be a much broader roleset

Most of the other classes I posed like mayor, framer, etc were from Town of Salem, which had quite the myriad of roles and powers

by Green Machine Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:39 pm

And yes, I am a bit taken aback about that reasoning for quitting the game as well. Especially if what Ghosty says is true and most Mafia games are like this, as I know she has experience playing forum-based Mafia. Perhaps it is just the reason she gave me and there are other motivations at work here. I can't really talk with her about it in-depth since I am still participating in this game. If her reasons are related to her role, or abuse being taken in the scumchat (if she was actually scum), she can't tell me any of that without compromising my place as a player in the game.

by Arc Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:11 am

Her PM informing me just said that she didn't think she would do well in this setting, that she didn't think she would fit in due to some of the dialog choices, and that she apologized for the inconvenience.

Honestly, some of the dialog choices can be offensive to some people, especially if they don't know the majority of the group and how they really act when they aren't giving each other shit and calling each other scumbags, so I understand that making you uncomfortable.

Most Mafia games do end up getting heated with insults being thrown around, the particular insults and how personal they get can differ wildly, so a thick skin is usually necessary, but certain groups can make people uncomfortable in ways they weren't expecting.

Its tragic, but its too late now, and really probably couldn't have been helped with this group of people.

by Green Machine Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:20 am

Like9Orphans wrote:I have a couple questions for the group who has played in previous games with me. What was your biggest fault in the last game? What do you think your finest moment was? For everyone else I want to ask a question that was asked last game as well. What makes a person or a post scummy?

My biggest fault last game was probably the insistence that a cop was present in the game. It was a factor in calling for the no-lynch the night before I died, and certainly didn't do the town any favors since it wasn't true. I would have been ready to give up on that the next day when there was still no cop claim, but I was too dead to change my opinion on the matter.

My finest moment was Day 3. I started some pressure on Otaku which (when added to by another player) ended up making him crack. Then after the claim I quickly followed up with questions that left no doubt he was scum.

by KevinSafeSpacey Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:55 am

*Out of game* Jesus Christ, if you get upset by word pairings such as "autistic screeching" you would sure hate me irl. I even leave out all vulgarity possible just to keep this somewhat profession since everyone else does. We should add a disclaimer because I really like to say or type the occasional (Multiple) cuss words. Anyways...

*In Game*
L9O- I'm more than puzzled by your assessment of me. Not because you think I lean to the scummy side but because of your reasons. Not wanting to hit any town with a mislynch is not a good reason to lean me scummy but that's just my opinion here. You and GM have this "For The Greater Good" mentality that I just flat out disagree with. There's really no better way for me to explain my feelings on that point.

Next, I know I was loud last game. You can really only use that defense once. It's been repeated over and over. I feel like my conduct last game is the equivalent of a hit pop song. It's stuck in everyone's head. Think of it this way, It's damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I screeched again everyone would vote to lynch me because well, the toxic "For The Greater Good" policy is well enforced here. I'm not screeching and literally every post directed to me so far has addressed I screeched previously. I wanted to give this game an actual go. Regardless of my role's alignment. This is because, and I know a few can vouch for this, I never live past day two. Past day one is also pretty rare. Not that I didn't have fun either of those times, but I'd like to see myself go farther and actually post relevant material for once.

I did address Ghosty's questions and I did forgive him for his short post. I said that what I did with otaku was probably a rookie mistake. I'm not used to playing as a normal person. Which is a point that has been beaten to death, then resurrected and beaten to death again.

Lastly, your question. I think any answer I give here will sound "scummy" to someone. The reason being, the term scum is just so broad in it's meaning to everyone here. Mack brought up a great point stating that he saw Hugh's post as comedic while others found his posts , myself included at one point mind you, scummy. The question seems broad and I think the game would turn into a conversation of semantics that won't get us to come together and find the bastard that killed Arc.

Mack- I agree with everything you said. Your points are exactly why I decided to back off Hugh. Especially after I noticed everyone really hitting the bandwagon and got a bad case of deja vu (last game). What if Hugh is town? What if Hugh is not only town but also a major role? It would hurt town and bring us at a disadvantage.

I am at a loss as to what to say to everyone else at the present but I'm sure you would all find benefitting information in this post. Particularly those who keep bringing up the prior antics of yours truly.

by Green Machine Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:09 am

We had a brief discussion last game about whether it is better to lynch on Day 1 or opt for no-lynch. The consensus there was that it is better to lynch, even though hitting town is fairly likely. We can reopen that discussion for this game, if you like. I think lynching is better because if we decide not to lynch then nobody has pressure to make important statements. Everybody just jacks off until the mafia performs a kill during the night, and the town is down a player without having learned anything. It basically forces investigative roles to win the game for you.

KevinSafeSpacey wrote:What if Hugh is town? What if Hugh is not only town but also a major role? It would hurt town and bring us at a disadvantage.

Hugh already claimed vanilla townie, so that particular thing isn't a concern here.

by Hugh Jorgan Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:14 am

Green machine really wants a kill day one.

I will do my part to oblige.

Vote to lynch remains green machine.

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