Mafia Round 3

Okay, so, first order of business: pineapple pizza is amazing.

Second order of business: my avatar. I may not believe in ghosts, but I still think they're cool. This is a traditional avatar of mine that compliments my traditional username.

Lastly,

Like9Orphans wrote:I had heard from someone (I don't remember whom I am sorry) that millers don't typically know that they are millers. I may have been misinterpreting what I heard from hearing that they don't know they are millers in a bastard GM game.

I don't know where you would have heard that, L9O, but in my experience millers are normally told they are millers. Otherwise, that seems like it would be a pretty bastard non-standard role.

Okay, so maybe this wasn't as content-filled as I promised, but hey, at least I managed to find the time to get a post down. Unfortunately (though predictably) there's not a lot to go off of yet, since I personally don't buy into the idea of a normalized linear relationship between pineapple pizza and scum.

I am somewhat surprised by how much activity we've had, given five players still haven't posted. It's a good sign. Even so, the Random Voting Stage is showing signs of clinging to life, so I'm going to take this opportunity to take it out back and shoot it. Rest in pepperonis, you massive waste of time.

Even though about a third of the game hasn't posted yet, I think there's more than enough information to post a preliminary Mafia Power Rankings. I'm only going to do a top two of each right now, rather than my usual full gradient, which will come as soon as everyone has sufficiently posted.

Top Two Townies:
Green Machine: As I posted before, I regard claimed millers as confirmed town, especially on day 1. If you're at endgame and there is no cop in sight, maybe you look harder at that designation. But as KevinSafeSpacey pointed out, Green Machine's claim post had an air of disappointment about it, which is entirely consistent with the role he claimed. And it would be very difficult to fake that sort of emotional hue, so I would also be willing to place my confidence in Green machine's towniness based on that factor alone.
Mack_Coffins: He's been the most insightful player so far. He's picked up on two things that slipped right by me, namely that Orphans could be using this pizza discussion to distract the town, and that KevinSafeSpacey very rarely misses the opportunity to engage in autistic screeching. Now, I think he's wrong on both counts, but that's okay. You can be town and still be wrong.

Top Two Scum:
1. Hugh Jorgan: Hugh's first post seemed reasonably town to me, as it's rare for scum to entire the fray slinging insults. That being said, his second post was a simple vote for lynching the pineapple. While I agree with the sentiment, I find it fishy that he avoided casting a joking vote on a player, perhaps on Orphans for his horrendous sense of taste. Also, it was a simple one-liner without any other content. It's the sort of thing Mafia members do to avoid sticking their neck out. My vote will remain on Ralphie for now, but once he posts, I may consider going after Biggus Dickus here.
2. Ghosty: His first post really irked me. I am very familiar with Ghosty spouting gobbledygook when he's tired, so I could perhaps overlook this, but ultimately the post was coherent. But the thing is, it also feels artificial, and I invite everyone to read it to see if they get the same impression. His second post was just a rehash of something Green Machine already said, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was deliberately avoiding breaking new ground.

I certainly don't hold it against Like9Orphans that he asked the question about pineapple on pizza. In the previous two games the random voting stage consisted of asking nonsense questions and getting nonsense answers, and he was trying to get that started. I think the day is better served by analysis of my claim, and subsequent dissecting of those analyses, but he actually managed to get his question in before I made my claim.

Answering Otaku's question: My username is Green Machine. My avatar was the favorite of the images I found when searching my username on Google images. Pretty self-explanatory I think, but I have explained it now anyway.

I'm hoping it doesn't take too long for everyone to chime in. I do like the amount of activity from those who already have! Hopefully we keep this up.

Arc, what time is the deadline for Day 1? I know you said day phases have a ten-day maximum length, but I'm not sure whether you started the clock when you made the opening post or when the last player confirmed their role.

You all have been incredibly witty and hysterical about this pineapple argument. What I lack in word-crafting, I more than make up for in hatred for pineappley pizza. I've tried it on more than one occasion and never have I said, "Wow, the last ten times I tried this were absolute shit, but this one is amazing." However, oddly enough, once I remove them from the pizza and still eat it, because, well, I would never waste pizza, I don't mind the taste. It's something that stumps me to this day. Anywho, back to the game...

Not to completely restate what's been said, but to share my alignment with a few of the subjects...

GM's claim is odd in the sense he just threw it out there immediately, but the logic that has been posted by others makes sense in terms of supporting his claim. However, I expected that his claim as Miller would also come with an insistence that there has to be a cop!!

Side question for anyone here: Is there a rule against referring to past mafia games? Is it against the rules or frowned upon in any way? I'm asking because it seems to be useful information in a game of limited information to discuss someone's behavior as out of the norm, etc.

I wasn't around for Kevin's past debauchery, but I'll take everyone's word for it. Behaving differently in a game isn't necessarily a sign of scumminess.

I chose my avatar based on the last game and just haven't changed it. The creepy Nic Cage has run it's course and I'm going to change it this week. Any ideas?

Hans, I'll make sure Ralphie pays for outing my last name on the Internet. I won't vote for him, yet, but his word choices better improve and fast.

Ghosty, I usually await your highly anticipated novels like an avid George R.R. Martin fan. Both in time it takes for the production and the amount of content. I must say I'm rather disappointed in the ratio between time waited and content given. As Hans so astutely mentioned, the content is slightly fishy. I'm slightly concerned that we didn't receive a lengthy piece from you, it's out of character especially since you took your time to say it. Though it doesn't make me quite want to point a finger, I'm getting close to it.

I think I'll hop on the top 2 train as well just to promote discussion.

Top 2 Town
1. GreenMachine- His claim made sense and his style so far seems to show he is what he claims to be.
2. Like9- he did mess up with his Godfather call but overall he's been very engaged and seems to be playing to promote cooperation. That's just my opinion but I THINK it's safe to say he's a townie.

Top 2 Scum
1. Ghosty- For reasons stated above you're being too abnormal and it's throwing red signals here. For now I'm not ready to vote though.
2. Otaku- he's posted in order to incite conversation and then stepped back and hasn't said jack since.

DSilv, there's no prohibition on referencing past games. Indeed, it can be very beneficial to compare a person's behavior to games where you know their alignment. Referring to ongoing games is not good, but that isn't an issue here.

Dsilv87 wrote:GM's claim is odd in the sense he just threw it out there immediately, but the logic that has been posted by others makes sense in terms of supporting his claim. However, I expected that his claim as Miller would also come with an insistence that there has to be a cop!!

This is actually a good point, and I should respond to it. In the last game I felt certain there was a cop because I didn't think Hans would throw in a red herring when there are so many new players. And it turns out he didn't, as he had made the role turn up negative results to both types of investigator that were in the game (the tracker and my one-shot of cop). But since it wasn't called Universal Miller I was thrown off. Now in this game my version of miller seems to explicitly only turn up guilty results to cops. However I don't necessarily think that means there is a cop as I think there is a better chance this time that it is actually a red herring.

Excuse me, I thought i had posted the deadline when everyone had confirmed.

OFFICIAL DEADLINE: September 26th, 2017 at 11:59 p.m.

First and foremost, addressing KSS, I spent most of yesterday either on a plane or drunk. It was a good day that wasn't conducive towards Mafia. Related to that topic...

Thoughts on Ghosty: I can understand his comparative lack of content if it's due to real life interfering, and Ghosty has alluded to being busy, hence his "more content later" comment. However, if the past is anything to go by, Ghosty is usually the one to incite discussion, so him not asking any quick, for-the-group questions to gain potentially useful information is a massive red flag for me. For now, I'm leaning towards him being scum because of this...

The other player I have concerns over is Hugh Jorgan. In his first post he said "Bickering pansies. Get yourselves together. We have a murder to solve." A respectable call to start serious discussion over the nonsensical pineapple pizza debate that dominated the early game. However, he follows that with... nothing. No substance, just jokes. Suffice to say, I'd like to hear his actual thoughts on the game.

To new players: I guess feel free to ask about previous games. Knowing how people have played before can help you find red flags in their behavior.

I share some of Otaku's concerns. However, I'm not quite ready to commit anyone to the scum pile at this point. There's not enough information out. When more info is floating out there, I will produce an assessment of my reads.

I would like, therefore, to both second Otaku's general call for more information, and also his call for more from Hugh Jorgan in particular, and also to pose a discussion question myself: I find, and have read, that there are two primary ways to deal with a Day One Miller claim: take as evidence of town-alignment, or lynch on policy so it can't be used as a cover for scum. The arguments on both sides tend to be rather wifomy in meta-discussions, given that one strat is arguably a reaction to the other which naturally produces some wifoming. However, given that we have a Day One Miller claim before us, I would like to pose a question for everyone: do you find yourself more compelled to view it as a townie claim, or do you find yourself more sympathetic to the policy-lynch route, and why?

As for me, my short answer is that I believe GM in this instance. My reasoning, in short, has largely been stated by others, in that his post seemed one of genuine disappointment. Also, false-claiming Miller Day One to set up a far-advanced cover doesn't feel like his style.

Answering Nihil's question, I'd say that I'm pro-not lynching GM right now. I feel that if we do lynch him right now, and it ends up that he's telling the truth, then the town just wasted time that could've been used to find evidence pointing towards the actual scum. Furthermore, GM hasn't actually done anything scummy outside of making a claim that can't be verified yet. So for now, I'll view GM's claim as true until new evidence arrives contradicting that...

Holy crap, this sub moves fast and I certainly feel like I'm behind the 8-ball.

First: please accept my sincere apologies for calling out the fact that this game is graced with the presence of Rensil D'Silva (there was going to be a link here but apparently I'm not allowed to post external links yet). As we're all lucky enough to hang on the coattails of the esteemed Dsilva I won't spend too much time here extolling his virtues.

Second: pineapple on pizza really works best when paired with a vibrant pesto sauce, pungent feta cheese, and finished with a tangy balsamic glaze; extra points if you add in figs. As this is the only real way to eat pizza I move to close the vote and accept pineapple as our true pizza savior.

Third: I chose my avatar based purely on seeing Hans' Putin right off the bat. I thought we might have a chance to be comrades-in-arms but his quick betrayal is now causing me to second guess my dreams of Vlad and Kim sailing off into the sunset together after vanquishing the resident scum.

Alright, so in all honesty as a first time player I do feel like I'm swimming upstream here so I would love to know more about the last game; specifically, who held what known roles at the end-game? If that's info that you can't share I totally understand and I'll think of a more specific way to ask the question.

I feel like I'm about to rehash most of what has already been said but am still trying to wrap my head around the game. My initial impression was that GM was bluffing as that seems like a odd move to make early, but with some further research it seems way too risky of a play if it wasn't true. Without knowing how dastardly GM has played in the past I'm not confident enough to make the call that it's a bluff. At this point it seems like we have some instigators in Hugh and Otaku, I don't know enough history about Ghosty to call out his behavior as abnormal.

I was going to start a retaliatory movement to lynch Hans but I'm not reading anything sketchy in his behavior yet so I'll leave that tabled for now.

Ralphie27: So, I think it'd be fine to share this info, since it's public knowledge to those who played the last game. I'll just describe players that were notable to me, and other people can jump in as they see fit. Or correct me if I got something wrong.

Relevant to now, Ghosty was an active town leader, giving extremely detailed analyses and run-downs of the players and then-current situations, as well as asking frequent questions to gain info. It would take him a while to make certain posts, but when he did they were often essay length. All in all, I'd say he's an expert player.

Green Machine was also an effective town leader, and I'd argue a bit more aggressive in his play-style than Ghosty. He's done his research and seems to have an intimate knowledge on the roles and strategies of the game. Another strong player.

Hans was the moderator, so I don't have any information on his play-style, only that he's a bit of a troll. From what I understand, he has a lot of experience with the game as well.

Like9Orphans was the sole surviving scum, and masterfully manipulated the town into trusting him, earning a victory for the scum team. Not sure what he's been smoking these days though, but I've got to get some of it.

I was also scum, but played a shitty game by rarely talking until I made a botched attempt at a fakeclaim, and was promptly lynched. I'm trying to redeem myself as a player by being more active now...

Notably we had a Miller last game, but no official town cop (Hence Hans being a troll). We have a new moderator though, so how relevant that is is up for debate...

Well, it's been fun reading carefully and watching everyone interact, nut I suppose I too much finally join the fray!

1. I'm not against pineapple on pizza. It's not my most favorite kind in the world, but I do enjoy it on occasion

2. My avatar is a grill. Because I am literally a grill. Get it?

3. From what I see from all of you, it seems logical enough Green Machine is in fact a Miller, so I suppose as everyone seems to be agreeing I don't intend to challenge that fact.

First off fingerpointing is very unbecoming Hans. It will take more than your theories to pin this on me. 2nd my instigation was only to wake this town up from an irrelevant conversation.

We need much more evidence than pinapple on pizza. (This seems like another misdirection)

Ghostly seems all around suspicious to me. No other evidence other than a gut feeling on that one.

We in this town need to stop the fingerpointing and find these scum that live among us.

Hugh, the thrust of my argument against you isn't your instigation, but rather your lack thereof. I merely brought up the insult to illustrate a point. You had a major shift in tone from your first to second post, going from accusing everybody to accusing nobody. And now, in your latest post, you echo three other players in having suspicions towards Ghosty, which is fair enough. But that is the exact line of play a Mafia member would make in this situation, that being joining in on a popular punching bag so as to deflect pressure. So let me ask this of you. Post the two players you think are most likely to be town, and a second player you find suspicious. Hopefully, this will help us get to the bottom of your alignment.

Now onto Ralphie's question. Otaku was right on the money with his post earlier, but I want to expand on it a bit. Green Machine was a Jack-of-all-Trades, a very powerful role indeed. He had three single-use powers. He used his cop power to catch Arc in the act, and he used his roleblock power to soft-confirm the Bodyguard, a power role whose player is not present in this game. KevinSafeSpacey was a Tracker, a useful investigative role. He was lynched day 1 for being a blithering idiot, and I suspect that left an impression on him, rather like swatting a puppy on the nose with a newspaper. Nihil and Ghosty were town members with no abilities to speak of. Ghosty was mislynched on the final day, cementing a Mafia win, whereas Nihil was shot on Night 1 by the Mafia in a decision I completely disagreed with. Also present in that game, but not this one, was a Miller as previously mentioned, and a Vigilante that never used her power. A vigilante, FYI, is a town-aligned player that has the power to conduct a night kill in a similar fashion to the Mafia. Hopefully, this lets you know a bit about what you're dealing with.

Waiting on a few more post to cement my decisions. At this point everyone is guilty until proven innocent.

On a side note...... Russian leader....... Russian mafia.....is this a subtle hint? I will leave that as it is.

I'll get on board with the top 2 lists of reads here.

Top 2 Town:
1. Hans Gruber. Pressing for more information while presenting as much as he can of his own. It's early, and he probably has the experience necessary to pull the wool over my eyes, but so far he is decidedly more town than the rest of you.
2. Dsilv87. He only hasn't said much, but his one real post called me out on a perceived contradiction, which is a very pro-town move.

Top 2 Scum:
1. Hugh Jorgan. These last two posts of his just scream scum to me. In particular the most recent one; the town needs information, so refusing a request for it is extremely scummy.
2. Otaku1889. He asks his nonsense RVS-style question after I make my roleclaim, which seems like a bad time for it. His remaining posts have largely been conforming to other players reads, including what seems to be a rather soft attempt at distancing from Hugh after Hans listed him among his top 2 scum reads. He did also give reads about players from the previous game, but didn't say anything there which hadn't already been said by somebody during the previous game's post-game discussion.

Vote to lynch: Hugh Jorgan

OFFICAL VOTE COUNT: 8 TO LYNCH
Ralphie27: 1-Hans Gruber
Hugh Jorgan: 1-Green Machine
Ghosty: 1-Nihil
Mack_Coffins: 1-Like9Orphans

LETS FUCKING SEE IF I CAN MAKE A GODDAMN POST!!!!! Computer has restarted on me 4 times in the last 2 hours. Its fucking dumb and I have had to write this post 3 times now.

Hugh that second to last post was stupidly scummy. In 7 sentences they contradicted each other.

Hugh_Jogan

First off finger pointing is very unbecoming Hans.

Ghostly seems all around suspicious to me. No other evidence other than a gut feeling on that one.

You are currently scum #1 with that post. You could have pointed to any evidence that others were pointing to but you instead, in a contradictory statement to what you said in the same post, say that it is a gut feeling. I need some reason. The only reason I am not voting to lynch you yet is because it isn’t even noon on the first day. DEFEND YOURSELF!!!

I will address your concern about my first question. I get my chance to autistically scream for about 2-3 days in the RVS stage and that was my autistic screeching. It was also to get people talking and enjoying the game on a social level at least in terms of comedy.

GM I think that you are wrong about Otaku on one term at least. He was providing the summary of people in the last game. While yes the newbies could get the info from the end of the last game they would A. have to browse through it to find the info they are looking for and B go to the other game to do so. He was giving a summary for those that would not go and look at the previous game which is not a particularly scummy trait. Not town but not scummy. Also you will look like 99% town after I hear from the last 2 people. If they haven't claimed miller then I will give you townie status until new info arises.

I am not completely for Ghosty being scummy just because he hasn’t posted anything of value yet. I am tired from the last game and I can absolutely say that I would believe that Ghosty would be tired from the last game. He had to think just as much as I did at the end and posted way more of value than myself. He was also doing that the entire game where I just kind of coasted till the end game. I want to hear from him but I am not ready to jump on the lynch Ghosty train.

To add more info for the newbies about the last game from my perspective.

GM: aggressive but primarily because he had a power role and hit a good target giving a confidence boost. Not that he doesn’t deserve it because his deductive skills as well as his knowledge of the meta and willingness to research material is a very dangerous tool for either side.
Ghosty: passive but leading the town very well. His experience and knowledge of the game is also a good advantage to both sides again. Ghosty is also an excellent liar in my real life experience. He always tells absurd lies but convincing ones nonetheless. Through text it is a dangerous tool with realistic information if he were scum.

Nihil: Excellent player but died due to scum knowledge of him personally. One of the best choices we made that game IMO.

Otaku: Not a leader of the scum team but when our leader died he made up for more than his share in our scheming. No one really saw his thoughts behind the scenes but he was particularly great as a partner in crime with proposing how to play the game. We made a mistake in his role claim and got him lynched but that was for sure both of our mistake.

Hans: Truly the troll everyone believes he is. I will mention that if he isn’t paying attention he almost cost me the game, No offense Hans but something to point out, but in the first game we played in he was for sure an excellent town member.

Dsilv: a bit timid in his posts and needed more confidence and research in his arguments but the only one who truly had the correct choice in the end. Good instincts

KevinSafeSpacey: I can’t say much about him other than the autisic screeching that we keep referring to. A wild card IMO.

Like9: Nothing of note…




But seriously I played a passive game dotted with heavy posts when I had time to put something together. As the game progressed I had to take a more active role and force my will on others to get the victory.

Answering GM's concerns:
1) "Non-sense RVS-style question." First off, yes, I asked a RVS-style question... during the RVS stage of the game. Second, while it's not a serious question by any means, and in no way was supposed to distract from the important topics, asking someone about their profile pic gives other players insight on their personalities and mind-frames, which newer players wouldn't know.

2) "Conforming to other players reads." I'll admit, most of what I've said has been obvious stuff. Most everyone that knows Ghosty can sense that something's been off about his behavior so far, and Hugh has acted scummy as Hell. As a counterpoint, I'd like to point out that I was the first to comment on your claim, so saying I'm just conforming with people is a bit unfair. And how is what I've said about Hugh "soft distancing?"

3) "...didn't say anything there which hadn't already been said by somebody during the previous game's post-game discussion." What does this even mean? I was giving a short and general recap of notable player behavior, not providing deep new insight on a finished game...

Sweet. I managed to accidentally provoke some meaningful discussion by having nothing useful to say. I wish I could say it was a calculated move on my part or some sort of gambit to see who would jump on me, but I did not have that kind of foresight. Nonetheless, I'm going to actually crank some worthwhile words this time in an effort to atone for my previous failures. Here's to you, KevinSafeSpacey, if you wanted a novel then you've got one now.

Subject #1, Hans Gruber:

Subject #2, Like9Orphans and Pineapples:

Subject #3, KevinSafeSpacey:

Subject #4, Ralphie's Questions:

Subject #5, Otaku1889. AKA, "Altogether Too Much Text:

Subject #6, Nihil's Question:

I see that L9O and Otaku have also both replied while I was making this post. I'll review those posts later, but for now, I'm going to keep what very little of my evening is left to myself and make a token attempt at completing some of the important things I actually needed to get done today while being slightly annoyed (though not surprised) at the afternoon-long affair this post turned into.

So, I'll come up with specific responses later when I get the opportunity, but I think I'll sign out for now by saying that I think Ghosty has cleared himself in my eyes. The novella is very in keeping with his play-style.

Otaku1889 wrote:1) "Non-sense RVS-style question." First off, yes, I asked a RVS-style question... during the RVS stage of the game. Second, while it's not a serious question by any means, and in no way was supposed to distract from the important topics, asking someone about their profile pic gives other players insight on their personalities and mind-frames, which newer players wouldn't know.

Unlike Like9Orphans, your nonsense question came after my claim. The random voting stage should have ended as soon as I did that, because right off the bat everybody has something of substance to argue about. It seems like trying to talk without actually adding anything, which is a scum move.

Otaku1889 wrote:2) "Conforming to other players reads." I'll admit, most of what I've said has been obvious stuff. Most everyone that knows Ghosty can sense that something's been off about his behavior so far, and Hugh has acted scummy as Hell. As a counterpoint, I'd like to point out that I was the first to comment on your claim, so saying I'm just conforming with people is a bit unfair. And how is what I've said about Hugh "soft distancing?"

You call out Hugh as a player of concern only after Hans does so, and you pretty much give the exact same reasons Hans does. That's pretty soft. Possibly more interestingly, you contradict what you just said to me in point number 1 of this post. You applaud him for saying something serious and calling for an end to discussing nonsense, but he made that post before the one in which you ask another nonsense question. Was the random voting stage over, or wasn't it?

Otaku1889 wrote:3) "...didn't say anything there which hadn't already been said by somebody during the previous game's post-game discussion." What does this even mean? I was giving a short and general recap of notable player behavior, not providing deep new insight on a finished game...

Yes, that's the problem.  I brought it up to preemptively counter the inevitable "But he/I talked about the players from last game" argument.  It's more talking without actually saying anything, which again is a scum move.

We still haven't heard word one from THR or Sisco. LiteralGrill had a short post which just answered the two nonsense questions and agreed with the consensus regarding my claim. I understand that everyone has different real-life schedules, but there has been a fair bit of time now, and continued silence will quickly shoot these three to the top of my scum list.